Compiling

[RickP]

I guess the term 'noob' is so broad that it needs to be defined in order for everyone to be on the same page.

They expect things to be handed to them on a silver platter, without having to put in any effort themselves.

I actually would love to hand things to people on a silver platter. Which is why I'm doing what I am doing. I got CEGUI to work with the engine I'm using and I could tell them all the many steps to get it working also, but I know that it's to much work and people would never use it because of that. Therefore I am doing all that work for them so that it's all setup and easy to use to this specific engine because I think the library is great except for the complexity of the setup. This is almost always the case with open source and I accept that, but don't agree that's how it should be. Which is why I'm taking this great GUI that has some complexities on the setup and trying to make it dummy proof to setup. 1 lib, 1 dll, include 1 header file, done. That's my goal.

I agree computers were making a difference when it was basement driven but if only 1% was all that was still working with them there is no question we wouldn't be where we are today. If you have 90% of the population working on a problem you have a better chance that it'll get solved and solved faster than if you only had 1%. It's just about increases the odds which increases the speed at which knowledge grows and new things get discovered.

Sorry if I took your comments out of context and jumped to any sort of conclusion, but this is the internet and we know nothing of each other so I have no idea how you act, which makes it hard to read people. At that point I'm just guessing to fill in the blanks.

The way I see it the problem really isn't the new generation of programmers, it's that expectations grow. That's a good thing though. It pushes things forward. If it didn't we'd all still be using assembly. The expectation of the new generation is that if you write something, write it so it's easy to use, and well documented, and has good support. Even if it's open source you should want to meet those criteria just to have something you can be so proud of. I think CEGUI is a pretty good example of that. CE has obviously spent a ton of time on documentation and the forum here, but very few open source projects are like that. They are more along the mindset of "just be thankful I gave you anything". Which is their right and I support their right to do that, but it still doesn't seem "right" to me. It doesn't seem like they are proud of their code or care about their code being able to help others. Maybe that's what it comes down to. If you really care to help others or not. I have a soft spot in my heart for other people

[CrazyEddie]

... They are more along the mindset of "just be thankful I gave you anything". Which is their right and I support their right to do that, but it still doesn't seem "right" to me. It doesn't seem like they are proud of their code or care about their code being able to help others. Maybe that's what it comes down to. If you really care to help others or not. I have a soft spot in my heart for other people

As I kind of said, I think the "just be thankful..." thing happens a lot. The heart of the issue as I see it is one of expectation. Anybody releasing their code has the right to provide any level of support they wish (even if that is zero), and I think we can - or have - all agreed that this is their right and their choice; the people who choose to use the released code need to accept and understand this also. I think it's totally wrong of people to automatically expect a particular level of support from FOSS projects - if they get that support, all well and good, but if they don't get that support, they have no automatic right to complain; as I say, it's an issue of expectation and does seem to come from a particular sub-set of people who are out there.

I'm stuck somewhere in the middle of the road. I do have a certain level of pride in the code I write; not all of it, some of it's bad I also have pride in the integrity of the codebase as a whole, which is why certain things done in the code by others have, at times, annoyed me. I also feel good when I see CEGUI used in other projects, and it's always good to see it used more. Though as I said elsewhere, if people choose not to use it, or decide that they don't agree that CEGUI is 'good', I respect their choice and their opinion, and will not lose any sleep over those things. Basically as a provider of FOSS if you let those things bother you too much you're in the wrong place - people can be brutal I also do try to help people where I can; usually I tend to be able to help - and get along better with - those who show an ability to 'help themselves' more than those who somehow lack that ability, those people seem to be out for all they can get - and this is something that grates badly, because I already gave them my tens of thousands of dollars worth of code - you have no right to expect (yes that word again!) more

CE, I started programming in 1996 so I take offense to that! It's those 2000+ coders I tell you!

My apologies, Sir

CE.

[Jamarr]

RickP, I see you.

As far as handing things out on a silver platter I agree with you in the sense that it would be an ideal situation; unfortunately, rarely anything in the real world is ideal. Likewise, growing expectations means that things are moving forward. But there is a difference between rational and irrational expections. Reasonable people, those who tend to contribute to projects, bring with them an understanding of project development and management. Sure, they expect a GUI library to achieve a certain level of sophisticaion, to provide a certain prebuilt widgets, and to provide a minimum level of support. What they do not expect is to have someone integrate the code for them, for unwritten features to write themselves, or belive that everyone can debug their code by reading their minds. These may sound like abnormal cases, but I assure you if you spend a few days on any of those forums you will see these expecatations on a daily basis.

Do not misinterpret my ramblings. I am all for being able to deliver a product that is easy for this demographic to use. I am all for helping FOSS projects become more widespread, more easily adopted, and more community driven. I just do not particularly care for those who come looking for support and expect the world to kneel before them.

There is definitely a trend in the younger generation to expect immediate gratification. This is not specific to programmers. I can see it everywhere in daily life. It is obvious that fast food, the internet, wide spread substance use, stores on every block, and mobile devices that can do everything have lead to generations of people who expect everything to be done for them; all they want to do is push the button. This has numerous benefits, but you cannot overlook the negatives. These people cannot actually do anything on their own, and they expect others to do it for them. I'm not saying everyone in the their generation is like that, it's just a generalization. Likewise, there are sure to be those in older generations with the same problem. And I suspect this happens naturally in the early stages of each new generation. And at some point the majority of them will figure out the world does not revolve around them.

To sum all of this up, I do agree with you on most points.